Terri Schiavo: Charts Show Discrepancy Of More Than 2 Hours Re: Terri's "Collapse" And Time Michael Schiavo Waited In Seeking Help
And the world was silent.
Post the following to as many blogs asking them to feature it as a regular post.. Also when contacting Jeb, or other officials via fax, snail mail or e-mail include this. Please spread this as far and wide as possible and ask others to do the same. Be creative,. Demand a grand jury! Make sure the special prosecutor is not Bernie McCabe, Everett Rice, Charlie Crist or some other shill of the Florida cover-up cabal. "Keep America dumb" is their motto. Give the appearance we are looking into something or care about it,. while we cover it up and sweep it under the rug. Let me be so bold as to ask/state,. as to where all the Sherlock Holmes types were BEFORE Terri was murdered? Please help to get a grand jury convened. Spread this far and wide to as many people as you possibly can. You will not get this in the mainstream press. There is more to this than the spinmeisters playing with your heads are framing it to be. We need a grand jury and not Bernie McCabe looking into this. If Jeb refuses he is part of the charade and is covering for the people who murdered Terri. Wake up America or you could be next! P.S. It's crucial that this information is disseminated far and wide and that a grand jury is convened. Do whatever you can. Be as decisive, creative, and effective as possible:
Michael Schiavo's 30-70 Minute Gap Exploded Away Regarding 911 Call Seeking Assistance for Terri Schiavo charts prove a much larger gap in which Michael Schiavo did not seek help and also prove his various testimonies are merely concocted stories made up while under oath,.
Michael Schiavo asserts on Terri Schiavo's tombstone that she departed this earth on February 25, 1990 but failed to tell that to the medical malpractice jury when seeking and winning millions of dollars for her care. Charts explode away 30-70 minute gap mentioned by authorities regarding Terri's "collapse" and time Michael Schiavo waited in seeking help and add an additional 2 hour gap. In fact Michael's accounts proven to be no more than stories hiding his complicity in her collapse. From text included with charts:
What are some things found in these charts (Chart 1 - Example in Chart form of conflicting testimony of Michael Schiavo re: Evening/Morning Feb. 24/25 1990 - Arrival Home, Chart 2 - Example in Chart form of conflicting testimony of Michael Schiavo re: Terri's "Collapse")? [Note: If pictures look small when loaded click on them to zoom in or right click and "save as" and look at them in picture viewer,.]
The following explicatory text is found in Chart 2:
1) The conservative estimate of a 30-70 minute time discrepancy is blown away to reveal an additional 2 hour discrepancy between the time of Terri's so-called "collapse" to the time Michael Schiavo sought help in that 2) Michael Schiavo's time of arrival home ranges from 11:30 p.m. - 12 midnight on 2/24/90 to 2 a.m on 2/25/90. According to his account he went immediately to bed. He awakened a few hours later "for some reason" and he then heard a thud. He immediately knew or suspected it was Terri. in additional to 3) The timing and sequence of holding her, rocking her, calling 911, Bobby Schindler and then holding her again differ in at least two accounts. In the first (Med Mal Depo 7/27/92) he says that she fell in the hallway on her back, that he was to her within 2 seconds, saw she wasn't breathing because he felt her chest and heard her gasp once, immediately ran to the phone and called 911 within 5 seconds, he then ran back to her and started talking to her and holding her. He didn't render CPR. He then says he laid her down again and went to call Bobby Schindler who was there within seconds because he lived right around the corner. He said it took the paramedics four, five, six or seven minutes to get there and that as Bobby came up the paramedics pulled up. (Let's see, Bobby was there within seconds and the paramedics were there within 7 minutes but they both arrived at the same time?) In another account (M Schiavo Direct Test 01/24/00) he said he ran up to her, turned her over (in direct contradiction to his earlier account) because this time she had fallen on her face and stomach, then saying Terri, Terri, are you OK? just as one does with Annie the CPR doll in any mandatory health class in Jr./Sr. High School in regards to assessing responsiveness. He then called 911 (second step in CPR protocols in regards to calling for assistance) and afterwards called Bobby Schindler and failed to render CPR. In this account he didn't run back to her and hold her again and then lay her down to call Bobby instead he calls 911 and then Bobby and then sees she isn't moving, proceeds to not give her CPR, holds her in his arms and rocks her until Bobby and paramedics arrive. Bobby is in the kitchen around the corner and Michael moves away when the paramedics come in. In yet another account (CNN Larry King Live: Interview with Michael Schiavo of 10/2703) he again contradicts his first testimony (Med Mal Depo 7/27/92) in regards to how he found her saying he was for some reason getting out of bed, heard a thud, ran out there to see Terri laying in the hall, thought "well maybe she just tripped or whatever", rolls her over and she was lifeless, that it almost seemed like she had this last breath. He then says he holds her in his arms trying to shake her up, runs over to call 911 and Bobby and then goes back to Terri. The paramedics arrive there six or seven minutes later. Now flash back to the police report as to how the paramedics say they found Terri. They found the subject in question lying face down and unconscious halfway in and halfway out of a bathroom. She was lying face down (not face up according to Michael's false testimony) halfway in and halfway out of a bathroom. One cannot help from speculating that Michael did something to Terri, dragged her into the bathroom to make it look like she was exiting the bathroom and that by positioning her on her face and stomach intended to and did make it look like she had tripped. To all intents and purposes he would have been better off not making up any stories that would have contradicted the way the paramedics found her face down on the floor halfway in and halfway out of the bathroom.
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Tracked on Jul 5, 2005 1:50:08 PM
The day that investigators, private dick tracey's, retired law enforcement detectives really shed the talk by news types and decide to get serious about this as suspicious circumstances possible to the cause of collapse, seeing that the one witness who was denied more therapy when her speech was starting to come back, as evidenced in medical records found in the pleading as attachments in her guardianship file, then the picture for abuse, intentional neglect in the form of denied therapy, not that she could not get any better, but that she was denied and not permitted to get any better, -- then this crime will go unpunished and several more million will be exterminated in the near not far future.
Posted by: David | Jun 19, 2005 2:22:19 PM
No matter what story he tells Mikey just digs the hole deeper. Payback is coming and I would not want to be him despite all the money he has made.
Posted by: Alnot | Jun 19, 2005 8:56:05 PM
May the truth be revealed and true justice served...A liar will always wind up tripping over themselves because there is no truth to the web of deception they weave.
Instead they entangle themselves.
Posted by: destinationdawn | Jun 19, 2005 9:37:06 PM
Alot of this information is stuff I've read thoroughly in the past. My personal impression is, that the most important issue lies in the fact that Michael Schiavo's lawyer is a dangerous religious cult leader.
His congregation is populated by lawyers and judges, all the way to the Federal courts. The slightly feeble-minded Judge Greer and his guru Felos claimed that their court was a "Right-to-Die" court, and it didn't matter what Terri's wishes were. What was important to them was that Terri's Law was stuck down as unconstituional.
Their entire court case was propelled by the interests of terrorist leaders, in the Church of Scientology!
I split-a-gut when I see guru Felos, spewing out his mouth against the religious-right, while he is a top leader of the religious-left! According to these religious extremists, their religious opinions and terrorist activities are LAW!
The solution to the terrorist threat inside American Law Enforcement, is not to write more laws; it is part of the solution. To effectively root out terrorists from the Judicial Branch, they need to recognize that Scientology is a driving force behind the "Right-to-Die" movement.
Instead, Federal and State governments honor Scientology with awards:
Scientology thrives on the most barbaric, longest lasting torture to the death possible--dehydration! In Terri Schiavo's case, they drowned the media with their own "experts'" announcements how peaceful Terri was, and that she could not feel anything.
While the entire world had to choose who they felt were telling the "truth", much of the world demonstrated that their own brain damage was worse than Terri's.
Only a brain-damaged population can believe that, contrary to the real doctors who educated the public that Terri was aware, and did have feelings and emotions, as well as the media coverage by survivors like Terri, the propaganda terrorists' explanations were the "credible" sources.
Check what I found in the link above!
Posted by: Ironsides | Jun 20, 2005 8:06:23 AM
Your charts and information are interesting, but I don't expect any further developments in the Schiavo case. I have never trusted M.S.; I really wouldn't trust any testimony by a man or woman who claimed to have found his or her spouse unconscious in the middle of the night, unless a non-violent medical reason for the collapse could be definitively established.
I think aside from the frustrating fact that Michael will face no consequences, or even scrutiny, for whatever really happened to Terri, there is a more important issue to fight for: the medical profession's persistant idea that non-communicative, brain-damaged people have no quality of life.
Look at the story of Julia Tavalaro: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140272828/qid=1119286021/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-0077469-5537708?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Being unable to move or speak makes it easy for people to decide things for you -- and they seem to decide based on money.
Posted by: Cynthia | Jun 20, 2005 12:53:03 PM
Very good attention to details! I'm going to forward your information to one of my journalist friends who is covering this case.
[pc93: Here is my new formulation in letting people know some details of what it's about: Terri Schiavo: Charts show 30-70 minute gap which authorities mention is blown away to reveal additional 2 hour gap in re: Terri's "collapse" and time Michael Schiavo waited in seeking help - Michael's accounts proven to be no more than stories hiding his complicity in her collapse.]
Posted by: Dawn | Jun 20, 2005 2:50:09 PM
See above FORBIDDEN VIDEO - (forbidden by Michael Schiavo, Felos/Greer)Terri was obviously aware and responsive. His 'promise', for which he received a generous money settlement, was to get her the very best therapy. He did not keep that promise in the least. What a travesty.. what a crime by the above three..
Posted by: Dee | Jun 22, 2005 12:56:15 AM
These are wonderful charts. You must have spent some time on them! Thank you for doing this for Terri, and for all of us; it helps so much to get a visual picture of the discrepancies. May I post this information at the Truth and Action site?
Posted by: Juleni | Jun 23, 2005 6:55:09 PM
Thank you so much for this wonderful contribution you provided "US" with.
Posted by: Marsha McClelland | Jul 6, 2005 11:53:13 AM
Frequent readers may notice that I did not comment extensively on the Terri Schiavo case. Or the Lacey Petersen case. Or the Michael Jackson case. Why? [Ed. note: You made mention or I wouldn't have posted about it.]
In the limited political time [Ed. note: It's all about politics. Not.] I have per week (balancing personal and familial obligations, work, writing/blogging and activism), I do not want to become a pretend 13th juror of some obscure case (or at least a case that would be obscure if our news services decided to report news) that in no way directly affects me or anyone I know. I am not a lawyer, juror in the cases, doctor, or anything qualified to speak except very cursorily on these topics. I don't think it prudent of me to go all over the Web becoming an independent tabloid journalist digging up obscure facts about people I've never met, going so far as to call Terry Schiavo's husband a liar based on blatantly partisan evidence [Ed. note: partisan evidence is the court record in his own words? lol.]. Yes, I do not blindly trust the legal system, but I would rather look into, say, Mumia Abu-Jamal's case, if I look into any at all.
Worse, the media's laserlike focus on these issues to the exclusion of the reality of Iraq, the economy, Zimbabwe, Israel, Venezuela and the entire rest of the planet (you know, all that stuff outside of America's courtrooms) is the most blatant attempt I've seen to channel justified pent-up political rage and boredom into meaningless diversions.
Mind you, I appreciate that things like the Terry Schiavo case are causing debates and interactions. As a libertarian, I would prefer people be involved with something I disagree with or don't care about than not be involved at all. But the real tragedy is that the Left has failed so much that there are not the institutions to take up that rage and divert it to things actually affecting the working class folks who are researching these cases as if they were going to begin their prosecution the next day.
There's also a suspicious skin color involved in all of these things. Yup, these are all white people (even arguably Michael Jackson, who performed the ultimate crime: not child molestation, which he may or may not have commited but which I will assume he is innocent of because I do not have the evidence otherwise and because I respect those twelve jurors, but trying to be a white black man). "Pretty White Girl Syndrome", if you will.
Imagine my surprise and irritation, then, when a comment on my post about NPR and Day O' Conner shows up. Now, the very fact that you are reading this post indicates something I am very proud about: that I care very much about the comments I receive and want this to be a free speech forum where a conversation can occur, not a monologue. And I feel angry when my libertarian patience is tested.
This comment, you see, was saying that Michael Schiavo is a liar and I should ask to convene a grand jury. On a comment about public radio and Day O'Conner. Please forgive me for thinking this isn't cogent. I'm not gonna delete the comment; I'm even gonna respond, both to the linked blog and to my page. [Ed. note: You spoke of Schiavo I believe.]
But this indicates the laughable fervor of this entire thing [Ed. note: A human life is not laughable. I'm sure that if someone was going to just walk up to you and shoot you in the head and you weren't aware of it at the time or they were sneaking up on you and someone else was witness.. you would probably appreciate if the person witnessing that event would try to stop it from happening.]: Rather than reading my stuff, they use my forum as a vehicle for their partisan plans [Ed. note: partisan.. wake the fuck up.], without even so much as a "Hey, sorry this is off topic". Perhaps I should copy my blog posts verbatim into pro-life blogs. [Ed note: Again you make an assumption about me. You have no idea who the hell I am pal. Wake the fuck up for the Wired community or for the internet for that matter. Your ignorance is showing.]
The initial thing to say is that no matter what you think about Terri, Michael, or Mike's lawyers, this case proves not a whit about physician-assisted-suicide (PAS), the rights of families to determine either to let their family member live or die, and the right to suicide more generally. [Ed note: Yeah it does when they lumped in someone who should not been a part of that in the first place to cover up for and commit a further crime - namely murder.]
I can simply see no argument for making suicide illegal, either physician assisted or not. It's mighty easy for someone who isn't suffering from the debilitating pangs of whatever condition it is to say that someone else shouldn't be allowed to gracefully die without being a burden on society or family any longer. Yes, mistakes can be made; no, that isn't any of your business. [Ed note: When it went national it became my business.] Yes, assuming God exists, it may indeed be an insult to Her to kill oneself; no, that isn't any of your business. Seeing a pattern? [Ed note: only your ignorance.]
Here is the link I was pointed to: http://tekgnosis.typepad.com/tekgnosis/2005/06/terri_schiavo_c.html
Al Franken rebuts here:
[Ed note: Rebuts me? I doubt that very highly. You just admitted you didn't have time for the research!]
David Peterson's excellent comment, per usual, here:
[Ed note: pseudo-intellectual garbage which lumps in labels at the expense of a human life. wake the fuck up against corruption.]
As Peterson rightly points out:
"Here (below) is the full write-up in today’s New York Times. Sad but unsurprising to see Jesse Jackson disgracing himself on this issue. Martin Luther King. Jr. is spinning in his grave, along with the nation’s founders. Maybe Jesse would like to say a bit more about the conflict between all the attention given to the rightist pseudo-Christian Schiavo fiasco and the modest discussion elicited by recent reports showing that many thousands of black Americans experience early deaths because of inadequate health care. "
[Ed note: study some general semantics.]
Judicially sanctioned murder should be stopped whenever seen. It is tendentious in the case of Terri Schiavo. It is not in the case of millions of starving, overworked, or killed victims of American capitalism. And those politicians so courageously fighting the ultra-powerful courts that surely cannot be stopped by anything barring God or a nuclear weapon are exactly those who institute these crimes, as well as the neo-liberal institutions that increasingly make democratic governance a sham.
An interesting position here: http://www.lockjawslair.com/archives/2005/04/what_if_michael.html. Let me note that our personal decision, life or death (to lean towards), should have no bearing on whether the parents or the husband be allowed to make the decision as to what Terri would have wanted. And if Terri had come out of her coma and wanted to die? The most painless solution should have been immediately instituted.
[Ed. note: I'm sure she wouldn't have wanted it to be at the hands of a so-called complicitous husband who caused her collapse and prevented her from getting better in the first place. The point is you never did the research! and either did the wonk (your term) who wrote the article.]
[Ed. note: Rebuttal of what? Not my freaking charts I can bet you. Jeb is part of the corruption you fools.. he is all about appearances and cover-ups.]
Mind you, I have no problem with taking Michael Schiavo to a grand jury, except to note that grand juries are notoriously quick to pull the trigger on indictments. As long as the grand jury and any subsequent juries are fair and objective, not packed with right or left wing wonks, and stick solely to matters of guilt and not constitutional interpretation, that is entirely supportable.
[Ed note: You are starting to make sense here.]
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 6, 2005 3:58:42 PM
It is telling about the faith of individuals who would put God on "hold" for 15 years. Regrettably, life always ends in death of the body. However, the soul is immortal. Those playing at being God with machines will answer to a Greater Authority for the time on hold. Perhaps they were suffering from a nascent agnosticism.
[Ed. note: Not sure where you are coming from.]
Posted by: Not as Conservative as I thought | Jul 6, 2005 5:55:40 PM
"[Ed. note: You made mention or I wouldn't have posted about it.]"
Actually, on my front page as of July there is literally no mention of Terri aside from the article I just posted. Nor is there in June. Nor was there any in the article that was commented on.
"[Ed. note: It's all about politics. Not.]"
My blog is and a good portion of my life is. Because I believe that I have a duty to stop the atrocities that I, my parents, my friends and my family support with their tax dollars.
"[Ed. note: partisan evidence is the court record in his own words? lol.]."
Actually, I linked you to about as neutral evidence that exonerated the man. Whatever you think, the court didn't find him guilty. Until the grand jury convenes, makes an indictment, then a jury of his peers convicts him, calling him a liar and a murderer is, umm, a little remiss.
"Ed. note: You spoke of Schiavo I believe.]"
Wrong, unless my memory and my Ctrl-F key have been broken.
"[Ed. note: partisan.. wake the fuck up.]."
Can you plausibly deny to me that there wasn't a partisan tone to the Terri Schiavo case?
Mind you, I don't think it's a good thing. People shouldn't fall on either side of the aisle. But they do, unfortunately.
"[Ed note: Again you make an assumption about me. You have no idea who the hell I am pal. Wake the fuck up for the Wired community or for the internet for that matter. Your ignorance is showing.]"
I didn't say your name or mention your blog except as the link that was referred to. I don't know who did it, nor did I especially mind, evidenced by the fact that I have yet to delete the comment and don't plan to.
What I *do* mind is that the person involved just said "Pressure for a grand jury indictment", which I can support (with the caveats I made) and said nothing about the article that I spent my time and effort writing.
"[Ed note: Yeah it does when they lumped in someone who should not been a part of that in the first place to cover up for and commit a further crime - namely murder.]"
And you reaffirm my point with incredible blindness: That if this case was murder, then all of the PAS debate should cease immediately. But since that has not been the mainstream reaction, clearly most people don't concur with you that Michael Schiavo is a liar who actually murdered his wife.
"[Ed note: study some general semantics.]"
Uhh.... wha? I responded to the case as I saw it. Admittedly, as my post made more than clear, I don't have the time nor energy to go through charts that may show Michael to be innocent, because I don't even feel I should be commenting. I was not there, I was not affected by the decision, I don't have the holistic evidence nor the lawyer's arguments nor the time to adjudicate the competing claims, etc.
Of course, if you wish to compile all the evidence and understand an important case in our time (for whatever erroneous reasons it's important), I applaud you for doing so, as my post also made more than clear.
"[Ed note: When it went national it became my business.]"
No, it didn't. The fact that the media is yelling it at you is a reason to turn off your TV, not get involved in another man's life.
Unless, of course, your objection is actually to PAS more generally. Then your arguments earlier disappear and I can't support your call for a grand jury indictment.
"[Ed note: Rebuts me? I doubt that very highly. You just admitted you didn't have time for the research!]"
I had time to look at some articles as well as some of the evidence you had. Further, the fact that you didn't do the two Google searches it would have taken to find the articles I made makes me wonder.
"[Ed note: pseudo-intellectual garbage which lumps in labels at the expense of a human life. wake the fuck up against corruption.]"
Uhh... Or it could be that the guy is actually taking a principled stand against the TENS OF THOUSANDS of innocent Americans mangled and killed every year because the government just doesn't give a damn. And noting the blatant hypocrisy and judicial tampering of those ostensibly trying to save a human life.
Honestly, doesn't the fact that Jeb is obviously using Terri as an excuse to get political capital irritate the hell out of you? And Jesse Jackson? Or do you not mind that Terri's body is being used by idiots on both sides to make more acrid partisan politics?
"[Ed. note: I'm sure she wouldn't have wanted it to be at the hands of a so-called complicitous husband who caused her collapse and prevented her from getting better in the first place. The point is you never did the research! and either did the wonk (your term) who wrote the article.]"
Right. Okay. Except that's blatantly false, because Franken et al did the research.
I find professional doctors, lawyers, etc. exonerating Michael. I find mostly conservative sites calling him a liar. Sorry if I don't go much further: my prima facia plausibility test (a test that whoever posted to my blog would know about if they read it, as I hope they did) registered "False".
Now, of course, when I do have the time I won't mind looking over the graphs, but at the moment, I'm going to stick to assuming a man is innocent because that's what the Constitution said and because asking someone to prove a negative is impossible.
Do you have anything to say about all the other victims of corporations and the government here and abroad? After all, if government turning a blind eye to and covering up what happened to Terri is wrong (which it would be, obviously), so would the actual murder caused by, say, Depleted Uranium all over Iraq (see Felicity Arbuthnot, Robert Fisk, etc.)
And do you want more transparency from the state? I want the state to be gone and something infinitely transparent put into its place.
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 6, 2005 6:16:07 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to rebut your claim that Jeb Bush is part of the coverup.
Now, mind you, I'm as amenable as anybody to conspiracy theories. I've listened openly while people tell me about the Illuminati and the Freemasons. But Jeb Bush and a coverup? First off, he doesn't have the resources to do so [Ed. note pc93: We spoke but yeah even one of his lead counsel said I would have to get a lawyer re: fraud in the Florida Agency for Healthcare Administration in regards their non-action regarding abuse/neglect,. by the facilities she was being kept in. I had revealed certain data which they had not investigated or was not presented to them but they tried to say they investigated what couldn't have been investigated because not brought to their attention by others. These agencies are underneath the Governor and have the Governor's name on their letterhead. Also one of the first e-mails from Jeb's office that betrayed a conspiracy cover-up was on Sept. 30, 2003 in which an underling (who was speaking for the Governor) using his e-mail account said that no reports of crimes had been received by Law Enforcement such as Everett Rice - who hired Michael Schiavo as a jail nurse before he went to the Florida House of Representatives and in which there is a connection to Michael Schiavo's concubine's mother working for them as a clerk, Bernie McCabe, Charlie Crist,. which was an outright lie,. then proceeding to say that Michael had gotten permission from the court to pull her feeding tube and that the public should get living wills,. there was also blatant lies about where her case was at the time of the e-mail... saying that it was before the Florida Supreme Court when it wasn't and nothing about that her death sentence had already been pronounced shortly after a Sept. 11th court hearing before Greer in which he ordered her feeding tube removed on Oct. 15, 93,. the particular e-mail in question went to 1000's all across the USA and the globe and was a fraud in itself that was in commerce by the Governor... this is only the tip of the iceberg of my experience with the governors office, I called them on it and have it all documented - as I say -> only the tip of the very corrupt, heinously criminal iceberg]; second, since he and all the other vultures using her death for political gain would have everything to gain by saying that Michael actually put her into the coma and murdered her, why he'd be covering it up is beyond me. [Ed. note pc93: Let me put it this way.. we all know about appearances and politicians,. are very good at making things look a certain way while the opposite is really happening in regards to their true intentions,. in due time everything will be revealed. I'm just one individual with lots of documentation and there are many others who have my documentation and there are many others who have lots of their own documentation proving crimes and corruption of government officials and agencies re: attempted murder and now murder of Terri.]
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 6, 2005 6:19:27 PM
Thank you for your impeccable work on the murder of Terri Schiavo.keep at it,this is the most shamefull event in the history of the United States and someone is going to pay!!!!!
Posted by: Geoff | Jul 6, 2005 8:02:02 PM
"Thank you for your impeccable work on the murder of Terri Schiavo.keep at it,this is the most shamefull event in the history of the United States and someone is going to pay!!!!"
I imagine all those Native Americans, enslaved blacks, and Vietnamese victims are applauding this quest for justice to end the most shameful event in the history of the US.
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 6, 2005 9:34:19 PM
Shut up you idiot. [Ed. note pc93: That's real intelligent.]
Why do you keep bringing up that MS didn't give TS CPR? What is your point? It is absolutely irrevelant to making MS out as a murderer. [Ed. note pc93: Keep bringing up? Lessee because his chameleon-like, ever changing testimonies happen to be a crock of shit maybe? concealing he did something to her and continued to do something to her up until the very time the first person arrived on the scene. This happens to be a range of between 11:30pm on 2-24-90 to 5:52am on 2-25-90. I guess you have never seen a video of someone abusing a child ala shaken baby syndrome or had someone turn on you in a split second and trying to kill you before,. For all we know he could have sat on her back or stomped on it - not violently but with a lot of weight/pressure - right before Bobby and the paramedics arrived at their apartment.]
"Michael Schiavo asserts on Terri Schiavo's tombstone that she departed this earth on February 25, 1990 but failed to tell that to the medical malpractice jury when seeking and winning millions of dollars for her care." WTF? Are you stupid? [Ed note pc93: No, but apparently you are.] What does this have to do with anything? [Ed. note pc93: fraud on the court perhaps? in relation to a scheme to murder someone and get away with lots of money.] Where is your data on where the money went numbnuts? [Ed. note pc93: I have much of that data but I was just doing the thing with the charts re: Evening/Morning Feb. 24/25, 1990. If I saw you in person you might have more than numbnuts you numbskull. You have made of yourself a complete ass.] That's the important information not the tripe you are posting. [Ed. note pc93: Tripe? Hahahahah. You need to go eat some tripe.. something smells like a rotten, unthinking fish.]
Your like a member of the Brady Bunch family but instead of brenda, brenda, brenda .... you're yelling cpr, cpr, cpr.
[Ed. note pc93: Apparently Michael Schiavo wasn't. Are you a member of the parrot species?]
I really hope somebody gave you a lobotomy because that would at least excuse your stupidity on medical grounds. [Ed. note pc93: A friend of mine once responded to another re: the subject of Nazism and one who was promoting it. There was a classic response and I'll do the same.. here is the door as it slams in your face.]
Dumbfuck. [Ed. note pc93: Loser.]
Posted by: Shut The Hell Up | Jul 7, 2005 3:56:36 PM
Yo, Shut the Hell Up.... Umm... Anonymously attacking someone and saying they should be given a lobotomy is the epitome of stupidity. It's called an "ad hominem", if you can fathom that.
Now, I expressed my questions and points to pc93, and he accepted them and responded. So I'm not defending his arguments. And a lot of the people above were ultra-hyperbolic in their response. But nonetheless, man. Chill out.
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 7, 2005 5:28:21 PM
Oh, and yes, a husband not performing CPR could be considered reckless endangerment or something akin to manslaughter.
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 7, 2005 5:34:07 PM
Perhaps I was a bit vitriolic in my response to this purported relevation from the almighty pc93 [Ed. note pc93: do you have to be a wanker?]. But it was so dumb that I couldn't help myself. [Ed. note pc93: saying that I'm dumb will not make it so. Go drink some more flouride or something.]
You realize that you are suggesting that the final epitaph of a person's life should be used against the husband? [Ed. note pc93: I felt it was apprppriate to put what was there after they got away with murder. Have a problem with it? Take a closer look at his testimony in the med. mal,. and see if he said she perished then. Wake up.] I find that absolutely disgusting [Ed. note pc93: disgusting and offensive is what happened to Terri in regards to certain individuals using the courts to off her because she was an inconvenience to them. Disgusting is what I call a televised 13 day murder which brought this country to a new low in regards to letting criminals get away with murder in broad daylight and under color of the law.]. You want to use that to prove FRAUD? [Ed. note pc93: You made the assertion not me genius ->.] Okay genius. Go right ahead. That laughter that you hear is everyone else thinking "Wow, that guy is dumb.". [Ed. note pc93: Maybe everyone is watching you be a complete jackass. Look at your Author name and Email jackass. Oh it's cool to murder people.. yey.. get a clue.]
And all you have to discredit this man is innuendo and no proof [Ed. note pc93: Innuendo and no proof is his own words proving he is a friggin liar. Again you keep coming back to no proof of his own words that don't match up worth a crap.]. We have a system of laws in this country that is much better suited to the pursuit of the truth in this case. Your contribution via this ridiculous post is quite worthless. [Ed. note pc93: says you, but not a lot of others who know what's up.] Unfortunate, perhaps in some eyes but I see it as a blessing of our system because your crazy theory [Ed. note pc93: It's not a theory.. I merely made up the charts from Michael Schiavo's own testimony in court, the police report and his making himself more of an idiot on national television.] will never be proven in a court of law. That's right. I said it. Never, ever, never.
Your anecdotal evidence about baby shaking is also noted and tossed out the window because once again ....... WTF? This has nothing to do with anything. [Ed. note pc93: I'm trying to make a point that anything was possible between 11:30pm on the 24th to 5:52am on the 25th of Feb. 1990 and if it was really true what Michael Schiavo says we are facing a paradox of some parallel universe in which Everything is True because his testimony doesn't come close to matching up with the police report. Wake up. Am I the only one who can see right through his lies?]
You compare my remarks to parroting what exactly? [Ed. note pc93: You reminded me of one in regards to your attacks calling me dumb and your weak arguments that seem to be repeated over and over again by people of your ilk who don't want to look at the plain as day contradictory testimony,. and then call me dumb because I put it on a chart.] That was quite the brilliant master stroke and stunned me into silence. [Ed. note pc93: Maybe you aren't a parrot then.] Almost as good as your original post. [Ed. note pc93: Gloss over the criminality and corruption like it was nothing. Shows where you are coming from.]
Oh, and for the record, I did not suggest that you give yourself a lobotomy. I was thinking that I might be able to forgive you for being so stupid if you had been given one. [Ed. note pc93: You so funny. Not.]
Posted by: Shut The Hell Up | Jul 7, 2005 8:28:53 PM
Oh, and for the brilliant Frederic Christie:
"Oh, and yes, a husband not performing CPR could be considered reckless endangerment or something akin to manslaughter."
That is ridiculous. Failure to perform CPR has never been construed in a court of law as a basis for conviction of manslaughter or reckless endangerment of an ordinary system.
Please stop making things up.
Posted by: Shut The Hell Up | Jul 7, 2005 9:03:35 PM
"You realize that you are suggesting that the final epitaph of a person's life should be used against the husband? I find that absolutely disgusting. You want to use that to prove FRAUD? Okay genius. Go right ahead. That laughter that you hear is everyone else thinking "Wow, that guy is dumb.".
What? That's absolutely not his argument. You really need to learn how to read articles a little more carefully.
"And all you have to discredit this man is innuendo and no proof. We have a system of laws in this country that is much better suited to the pursuit of the truth in this case. "
I do concur here.
One thing, pc, is that in personal correspondence I've seen you make citations to folks that when I did work on were making far more nuanced arguments. The Florida ME, for example, didn't support either the bulimia or the abuse assertion. Further, let me note that your positive sources could also be an insular sect that affirms each other using snippets of data taken out of context. When one is proposing a conspiracy theory, standards of evidence will have to be very large.
"We spoke but yeah even one of his lead counsel said I would have to get a lawyer re: fraud in the Florida Agency for Healthcare Administration in regards their non-action regarding abuse/neglect,. by the facilities she was being kept in."
That means, "You have to get a lawyer to make these accusations." I don't think that means that he was telling you there was any legitimacy to it.
I'd also recommend that when you say these things you post to a collected pile of data and link each time, because using private correspondence and Yahoo forums is really terrible investigative work especially if you make assertions and the stuff isn't there for people to check.
"This happens to be a range of between 11:30pm on 2-24-90 to 5:52am on 2-25-90"
Looking over testimony from anyone there may undoubtedly be gaps. Clearly the court did not find this a reason to deny him the malpractice settlement, nor did the lawyers who had everything to gain from pushing it.
" using his e-mail account said that no reports of crimes had been received by Law Enforcement such as Everett Rice - who hired Michael Schiavo as a jail nurse before he went to the Florida House of Representatives and in which there is a connection to Michael Schiavo's concubine's mother working for them as a clerk, Bernie McCabe, Charlie Crist,. which was an outright lie,. "
Now you are saying there MUST be a conflict of interest because Rice hired Schiavo as a jail nurse? What?
Concubine? What the hell? I recommend you dictionary-up what a "concubine" is and see if this could be a remotely accurate description. In any respect, this also does not prove a conflict of interest.
All sorts of coincidences can be seamed together if you're out looking for it.
saying that it was before the Florida Supreme Court when it wasn't and nothing about that her death sentence had already been pronounced shortly after a Sept. 11th court hearing before Greer in which he ordered her feeding tube removed on Oct. 15, 93,. the particular e-mail in question went to 1000's all across the USA and the globe and was a fraud in itself that was in commerce by the Governor... this is only the tip of the iceberg of my experience with the governors office, I called them on it and have it all documented - as I say -> only the tip of the very corrupt, heinously criminal iceberg];"
The fact that a Governor's office will feed you false information does not surprise me nor does it prove a coverup. You're still blatantly ignoring that Jeb went public AGAINST the removal of the feeding tube and would have EVERYTHING TO GAIN by withdrawing from the conspiracy and using data from it to blast Schiavo.
You argue that the Governor received data from you and others, but I imagine they never read it. Most politicians don't read correspondence, especially ones that would accuse them of criminal negligence. This also does not prove a conspiracy.
Bear in mind, it is up to you to prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt that these people are guilty, just like any prosecutor. Especially since their defense isn't present to rebut your assertions and call opposing witnesses. The fact that a number of courts have not gone your way nor has the Republican Party (are Dubbya, Frist and Jesse Jackson part of this conspiracy too?) indicates that it is very likely to be false.
"Let me put it this way.. we all know about appearances and politicians,. are very good at making things look a certain way while the opposite is really happening in regards to their true intentions,. in due time everything will be revealed."
This is a hallmark of the conspiracy theorist mind: Even when they would have everything to gain IN THEIR PUBLIC IMAGE, the one they care about, you calmly tell us that "All will be revealed." Sorry, but I can make any number of predictions and say "They'll be revealed later".
Mind you, as I said, I don't trust anyone with political power and I am as amenable to a conspiracy as anyone else. But the few facts I've looked at just don't establish one to me. Perhaps ineptitude, callousness, bureaucratic idiocy and nepotism, yes. In fact, most of the time, when dealing with the government, that's what you get. Not incarnated evil, but malice, cruelty and stupidity.
" I'm just one individual with lots of documentation and there are many others who have my documentation and there are many others who have lots of their own documentation proving crimes and corruption of government officials and agencies re: attempted murder and now murder of Terri.]"
And the same can be said about the folks that argue for the Illuminati or the Freemasons or the Kennedy assassination or whatever else. However, there is a pattern to this documentation: Denials are used as more evidence of a coverup; silence is more important than thunder; things are pieced together without context and without replies to other people, especially to other people on the Left who are as far from apologists for state violence as one can get...
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 7, 2005 9:15:42 PM
For one thing, oh Anonymous Contributor, you just breathe ad hominems. It's laughable.
"The common law does not impose an automatic duty on first aiders to go to the aid of every casualty they come across. However, first aiders do have a duty to provide first aid assistance if they have voluntarily taken on the duty. For example, a nominated first aid officer in a workplace owes a duty of care to assist another person in the workplace."
It is very easy to imagine this extends to a husband taking care of his wife: http://www.parasolemt.com.au/Manual/legalissues.asp
Further, this FAQ says that one can be provided immunity for not performing CPR. http://www.probatect.org/services/faqs/forms_faqs_livingwill.html . Indicating that it's possible to try someone for gross negligence. Indeed, that's part of certain manslaughter statutes.
Watch some Law and Order and take some Prozac, man.
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 7, 2005 9:50:02 PM
First of all,
"It is very easy to imagine this extends to a husband taking care of his wife"
No it is not. There is no way to perform connect the dots between a first-responder and a husband. Your post is invalid. In fact, you are not citing LAW at all but ethical guidelines. You cannot prosecute ethics. You prosecute using LAW and LAW alone.
Also, this is a US case. Citing an Austrailian website is faily ridiculous in that circumstance.
"Watch some Law and Order and take some Prozac, man."
There is so much that could be said about this ..... Suffice it to say, that the asshole who gets his/her ideas about the law from TV is an idiot.
Show me case law that indicates that you can prosecute a family member under extreme emotional stress for failing to perform CPR and maybe, just maybe, I will yield that your argument is valid.
Second of all:
"What? That's absolutely not his argument. You really need to learn how to read articles a little more carefully."
I was responding to the poster's comment to my response. NOT THE ARTICLE. You need to read a bit more carefully. Here's the comment for your benefit:
"[Ed. note pc93: fraud on the court perhaps? in relation to a scheme to murder someone and get away with lots of money"
Thanks for the entertaining discourse.
Posted by: Shut The Hell Up | Jul 7, 2005 10:21:35 PM
"No it is not. There is no way to perform connect the dots between a first-responder and a husband. Your post is invalid. In fact, you are not citing LAW at all but ethical guidelines. You cannot prosecute ethics. You prosecute using LAW and LAW alone."
No, I'm not. I'm citing legal precedent. At some level, gross incompetence is tantamount to murder.
The law is fairly clear about spousal privilege: One gets protection of statements similar to the doctor-patient or lawyer-client privilege, and Michael was the legal guardian precisely because of spousal privilege. For people to then turn around and say that the husband couldn't potentially be tried for gross negligence for doing nothing while his wife died in front of him.
Let me state that I believe such a prosecution would be malicious under any circumstances, wholly unwarranted and would be especially remiss given the current political climate. But I think the law could easily support it.
By the way, the bit about promising immunity (which implies that not doing it can be chargeable such that immunity is needed)? Hamilton County, fucking Ohio.
"There is so much that could be said about this ..... Suffice it to say, that the asshole who gets his/her ideas about the law from TV is an idiot."
Except that L&O is based on actual existing case law ("pulled from the headlines"). Yes, no shit it's dramatized, but no, it wouldn't surpass the statutes.
Seriously, dude, you walk like a bull in a china shop through nuanced arguments, put your foot in your mouth in such a way that makes me think you're wearing meat shoes, and then add in a healthy dose of insults on top.
"I was responding to the poster's comment to my response. NOT THE ARTICLE. You need to read a bit more carefully. Here's the comment for your benefit:"
The comment you cite doesn't even mention the epitaph. Mind you, I'm generally of your opinion. But skepticism about facts even when an argument seems ludicrous does not give license to perform ad hominem attacks and generally be a dick. That is anti-rational and a horrible way to proceed.
My blog comment makes fairly clear that I don't think this grand jury indictment would get off the ground, that the evidence (though ambiguous) is certainly not worthy of a prosecution, and that it's not our place to discuss this matter as we don't have the evidence that the courts do.
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 7, 2005 10:49:34 PM
Expected result of whitewash investigation by corrupt State Attorney Bernie McCabe:
What a joke of an investigation. Did anyone think there would be a real investigation of the matter?
Posted by: pc93 | Jul 7, 2005 11:05:25 PM
"At some level, gross incompetence is tantamount to murder."
You're confusing incompetence with negligence. This is your first mistake. Not to mention that the actual circumstances of the case do not support the characterization of MS as negligent. As far as this comment goes:
"By the way, the bit about promising immunity (which implies that not doing it can be chargeable such that immunity is needed)? Hamilton County, fucking Ohio."
They are talking about professional care-givers in that article. It doesn't extend to marital responsibility. Even if the husband knew CPR. Shock will do strange things to a person that's why you call a professional when you need help in matters of life and death. MS kept enough of his wits about him in a time of crisis to avoid being labeled as negligent.
"But I think the law could easily support it."
You think, eh? Not unless you believe, like most Republicans, that the judicial branch is out there making new law everyday and legislating from the bench. There is no case law out there to support such a prosecution and only the most liberal judge would allow a prosecutor to use their courtroom to do it in. I.E. it's not going to happen. It defies logic.
Regarding L&O, it is quite an entertaining and informative show but it is highly misleading and generally incorrect on many points. It is not the stuff to base a Shiavo discussion on.
"But skepticism about facts even when an argument seems ludicrous does not give license to perform ad hominem attacks and generally be a dick. That is anti-rational and a horrible way to proceed."
My abrasiveness is due to my mistreatment at the hands of my father as a child. :-)
Take it with a grain of salt, dear.
Posted by: Shut The Hell Up | Jul 7, 2005 11:15:12 PM
"You're confusing incompetence with negligence. This is your first mistake. Not to mention that the actual circumstances of the case do not support the characterization of MS as negligent. As far as this comment goes:"
I'm not sure. This wasn't the question answered in the court cases.
My argument is very simply that failing to perform CPR while your wife dies could win a conviction if someone tried to press it.
"They are talking about professional care-givers in that article. It doesn't extend to marital responsibility. Even if the husband knew CPR. Shock will do strange things to a person that's why you call a professional when you need help in matters of life and death. MS kept enough of his wits about him in a time of crisis to avoid being labeled as negligent."
No, the precedent makes clear that some action should be done. This even applies to non-doctor folks who are simply trained in first aid. However, exemptions have come up for "do not resuscitate" cases as well as Good Samaritan laws and cases where the person could have done more damage.
"You think, eh? Not unless you believe, like most Republicans, that the judicial branch is out there making new law everyday and legislating from the bench. There is no case law out there to support such a prosecution and only the most liberal judge would allow a prosecutor to use their courtroom to do it in. I.E. it's not going to happen. It defies logic"
I do believe some judges are a little more liberal with statues and some less. Clearly this isn't a giant judicial conspiracy to tank the Constitution and kill religion as the idiot Republicans allege, but there is some wholly understandable gradation.
Now, of course, a MURDER conviction might be laughable, but negligence (which is what he did, mind you: leave her there to die until the paramedics arrived) could be applied, I think. Arguable, certainly. It certainly doesn't "defy logic", which (despite the violence most people do to logic daily by comments like this) doesn't have the resolution to answer questions like this.
In all other respects, I very much agree with you...
"Regarding L&O, it is quite an entertaining and informative show but it is highly misleading and generally incorrect on many points. It is not the stuff to base a Shiavo discussion on."
And I wasn't. I said that as an aside.
"My abrasiveness is due to my mistreatment at the hands of my father as a child. :-)
Take it with a grain of salt, dear."
I don't take it at all. It is ad hominem and merely serves to make the routine a bickering match.
Posted by: Frederic Christie | Jul 8, 2005 2:22:32 AM
The problem with this latest conspiracy theory is that the medical reality contradicts such an extended timeline. [Ed. note pc93: Testimony from MS's words charted to see what he said in regards to time,. is a conspiracy theory? The medical reality could have occurred anytime between 11:30am on the 24th, 1990 to before any other witness arrived on the scene. Who gave you your brains?]
Even her lower brain could not have survived had help been delayed 30 minutes, much less 2 hours. [Ed. note pc93: See my first comments. If you really looked at his testimony and the police report you are blowing smoke up peoples behinds with your extrapolations on medical realities and impossibilities. Great example of pure BS.]
She was in ventricular fibrillation when the paramedics arrived 12 minutes after the 911 call (all times from the autopsy report). [Ed. note pc93: Again look at the whole picture of the testimonies and see who is lying. Until you acknowledge the reality of that you are just covering for someone who got away with murder because of whatever sick agenda you have.]
In ventricular fibrillation there is no effective blood flow to the brain.
Except in rare circumstances like cold-water drowning, the cortex cannot survive more than a few minutes without oxygen (most sources state 5-6 minutes before irreversible damage).
It took the paramedics over 40 minutes to get a pulse, and nearly an hour to get a "measurable systolic blood pressure."
It is extraordinary that even her lower brain was saved.
There was never any chance to save her upper brain; it died long before the paramedics arrived from lack of oxygen. [Ed. note pc93: Regardless of your perception of what happened to her in regards to brain damage what you are saying has nothing to do with the conflicting testimony from a person who got away with murder by using the courts and corrupt judges, the state,. to do his dirty work. In regards to the charts and the picture of what is on there you are just pulling stuff out of thin air having nothing to do with Michael Schiavo's testimony. So keep living in fantasy land I guess. You appear to be happy there.]
Only an automated electrionic defibrillator (AED) could have made a difference in those first few minutes, by cardioverting the ventricular fibrillation to a normal, sinus rhythm. [Ed. note pc93: What this has to do with MS's testimony is beyond me.]
But AED models approved for home use did not exist in 1990. [Ed. note pc93: blah blah blah.]
If anyone really wants to prevent this scenario from happening to their household, buy an AED and take it with you everywhere you go. [Ed. note pc93: Plug whatever but get a clue in doing any real research in what happened in regards to testimony not even being close to matching up to the reality of how she was found.]
The current national goal is 4 minutes or less to defibrillation;
even first responders aren't that fast, but you could make the difference for a family member, friend, or neighbor. [Ed. note pc93: I see a lot of empty words and a lot of BS. You diverged from the real picture of the testimony and the police report into fantasy land.]
Posted by: Bill | Jul 8, 2005 10:53:04 PM
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