Frontal Assault on Freedom: FBI Raids Liberty Dollar

If Ron Paul supporters, gold standard advocates and the Liberty Dollar were nothing but harmless kooks, why would the FBI raid their offices when no crime was ever committed? This is a currency competing with the USD, yes, but they never make the claim that it is legal tender or anything other than what it is: private currency.

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From Majestic12

Ive seen this email before back in October.

Right now I cant confirm or deny it. Kinda suspicious to me. Go to the website they have updates for the day like business as usual but goto the shopping carts and everything goes blank. Could be a server hiccup or a server raid. Problem is with server raids they seize everything and shut it ALL down.

Little note I received a very important letter from my bank stating how my accounts were accessed and I'm on their new update lists and needed to confirm or deny transactions made on my account. I went to the website and all things checked out and it was legally happening my account were being targeted by hackers or some such to steal my identity. After a few hour of navigating the banks website I found their security and reported my concerns and information about emails I received. On the emailed click link they needed my name and email addy to confirm.

The rest of the story:
I never have had an account with that bank. Whoever set it up looked exactly like the bank and to all intensive purposes was inside their system "In my eyes". I contacted the bank security (By another site they owned) and was thanked in email with a normal "Thanks for the report" style email reply. Link was dead when I checked a few days later. Was it internal ...maybe. Hacker....maybe. who knows.

Lets keep our wits for now and find out everything. Its just weird they only have partial blackout of their servers after a raid.

Could I be wrong: Yes
Could I be right: Yes

Personal opinion for now is its a false rumor to get you to goto the class action lawsuit sign up they have to bolster numbers. Also know I know its not "Beyond" the FBI to do this under orders from a Fed Res Suit.

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Hmm, Bernard von NotHaus posted a message on libertydollar.org this morning with no mention of any raid or theft.  Isn't it odd that he would send a frantic email and not say a word on the site?

Darin

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From Mike:

Anyone familiar with people who want to get back to REAL money, will find that the Fed's are absolutely bent on destroying you.

 

Several Patriot's have learned this lesson the hard way.

 

They shoot first and ask questions later.

 

This action is typical of how the 'job' gets done.

 

You don't mess with the IRS/Federal Reserve/ and 'Fiat' money. It's what the Socialists are all about.

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Confirmed on Alex Jones that event did occur 12:41 EST

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Liberty Dollar office raided

Staff report
Originally published 01:42 p.m., November 15, 2007
Updated 01:42 p.m., November 15, 2007

The future of an Evansville-based company that produces a "private voluntary barter currency" known as the Liberty Dollar is in question after federal agents raided the facility this week, according to an e-mail sent by its founder.

Federal officials reportedly raided the group's headquarters, located in a strip mall at 225 N. Stockwell Road, early Wednesday morning and seized documents and precious metals.

FBI Agent Wendy Osborne, a spokeswoman for the FBI's Indianapolis office, directed all questions on the raid to the Western District of North Carolina U.S. Attorney's Office. A spokeswoman there said she had no information on the investigation.

Bernard von NotHaus, the group's monetary architect and the author of the e-mail, did not immediately respond to a message seeking comment.

Von NotHaus developed the Liberty Dollar in 1998 as an "inflation-proof" alternative currency to the U.S. Dollar, which he has claimed has devalued since the Federal Reserve was established in 1913. The silver medallions are produced by a private mint in Idaho on behalf of Evansville-based Liberty Services, which also issues paper notes which the group says are backed by silver reserves.

Liberty Dollar employees were at the office this morning cleaning up after the raid. They referred all questions to von NotHaus.

According to the e-mail, about a dozen agents arrived Wednesday morning and seized gold, silver, platinum and nearly two tons of recently delivered Ron Paul Dollars. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze the group's bank accounts, the e-mail said.

"We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed," von NotHaus wrote in the e-mail, which was sent to Liberty Dollar customers. "We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money."

The e-mail said the gold and silver that backs up the paper and digital currency was confiscated, as were the dies used to mint the Liberty Dollars themselves. As a result, it warns that recent orders placed for Liberty Dollars may not be filled and it encourages supporters to band together for a class action lawsuit.

The e-mail repeatedly defends the Liberty Dollar as legal.

"You did nothing wrong," von NotHaus wrote. "You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal to return America to a value based currency."

- Gavin Lesnick

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/15/liberty-dollar-office-raided/

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All of Us on the Edge of the Cliff, Fighting Back Against the New World Order 

 

IAHF List:

As you read this news, bear in mind that for every action there is an EXACT and OPPOSITE reaction!! Much HOPE is ALSO provided in this e-alert, so don't despair!!

RON PAUL DOLLARS & GOLD SEIZED BY FEDSTAPO YESTERDAY MORNING IN RAID AGAINST LIBERTY DOLLAR

Yesterday morning at 8 AM robot functionaries from the FBI and Secret Services raided the offices of Liberty Dollar in Evanston, IN and confiscated all of their records, and Liberty Dollars including 2 Tons of Ron Paul Dollars that were just delivered last Friday.This move seems extraordinarily bold considering that Liberty Dollar's right to operate already was being litigated in federal court.

Below my comments please see the comments of Bernard Von NotHaus of Liberty Dollar who is urging anyone whose property was just stolen by the government in this raid to sign up for a class action lawsuit.

Andrew Williams, a spokesman for the Federal Reserve in Washington, D.C. made this statement which is found on the front page of Liberty Dollar's website:

"There is no law that says goods and services must be paid for with Federal Reserve notes. Parties entering into a transaction can establish any medium of exchange that is agreed upon."

Paul Harvey, well-known and respected news commentator, reported:

What's new? The Liberty Dollar! Fed Ex competes with the Post Office. So now there's the Liberty Dollar competing with the greenbacks printed by your government. The Liberty Dollar is backed by gold and silver. Yes, there's a competitive currency right here in the United States. In five years it has become the second most popular currency in America.

Friends: This Fedstapo raid underscores the fact that we're at war against the Bilderberg Illuminati pond scum right now, and that they're getting scared and desperate because with information such as Alex Jones film ENDGAME out there: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261 their window of opportunity to STEP on all of us is rapidly closing! They know that people are coming out of their stupors with great rapidity due to our ability via the internet to bypass the CIA controlled media.

They're overreaching via this raid as they seek to squelch the Ron Paul Revolution. They decided at the Bilderberg Conference to make Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani the Democrat and Republican "nominees" and its evident that they decided to insert Hillary as the next dictator:  http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=ivpKo93_6LU However, despite this nonsense LIBERTY IS BREWING & IT CANNNOT BE STOPPED! See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsDlO2Lr_cg and http://www.teaparty07.com 

Don't feel depressed as you read of the Fedstapo's gonadless raid against Liberty Dollar (below). Just know that for every action there is an exact and opposite REACTION: See March for America- This Saturday in 9 Cities across America, people who have had ENOUGH will be marching AGAINST the New World Order, Against the North American Union, Against Codex, and FOR FREEDOM! http://mfa.allamericanpodcaster.com/

Marches in NYC and in Clearwater FL have been added to the list since I last told you about this, and I urge you to go to them, help swell the ranks of the marchers because the Revolution is ON! Its happenin' NOW, and YOU CAN HELP! Please step forward to organize a march in YOUR city! We can help! The spirit of 1776 has laid dormant in this land, but it has NOT DIED! We're all rekindling that spirit right now, and we will NEVER give up!

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Liberty Dollar Reportedly Raided by FBI

Brian Doherty | November 15, 2007, 3:22pm

The Evansville Courier-Press, the local paper in the city where the Liberty Dollar is headquartered, is reporting:

The future of an Evansville-based company that produces a "private voluntary barter currency" known as the Liberty Dollar is in question after federal agents raided the facility this week, according to an e-mail sent by its founder.

Federal officials reportedly raided the group's headquarters, located in a strip mall at 225 N. Stockwell Road, early Wednesday morning and seized documents and precious metals.

See Stephen Gordon's blog for the full letter Liberty Dollar chief Bernard von NotHaus supposedly sent out this morning, and for some speculation that the whole email and story might be bogus. Like the Evansville Courier-Press, I have so far gotten no comment from the Indianapolis FBI, and no returned calls from von NotHaus or the U.S. Attorney's office for the Western District of North Carolina. The Courier-Press story does state that they spoke to unnamed Liberty Dollar employees who seemed to verify the raid had indeed occurred.

UPDATE: Thanks to reasoner Jeff Taylor, I've seen a copy of a Nov. 9 seizure warrant on an Asheville, NC, address, not available online, claiming that Liberty Dollars at that address are forefeitable for being connected with money laundering and mail fraud. I have not read the entire 38 page warrant, nor am I 100 percent certain it is connected with the actions in Evansville today, but given that the Indianapolis FBI referred me to the U.S. Attorney in North Carolina, probably so, and that multiple raids were planned or executed re: the liberty dollar.

The warrant explains that the FBI from Aug 2005 to July 2007 were "conducting undercover operations to determine the legality of the American Liberty Dollar currency." The warrant also notes that von NotHaus sold an undercover agent a Liberty Dollar T-shirt, and that the agent observed von NotHaus driving a 1999 Cadillac Deville. It doesn't take a trained federal agent to connect the dots here, I suppose. In other words: What-th-what-th-What?

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Comments to "Liberty Dollar Reportedly Raided by FBI":

Add a comment ↓

Shannon  Love | November 15, 2007, 3:41pm | #

We used to have a local barter system here that got shut down by the state and local tax authorities. They never raided anybody they just started requiring so much tax paper work for each transaction that people just gave up.

Russ R | November 15, 2007, 3:46pm | #

I wonder if this will have any impact on the Liberty Dollar / FRN exchange rate.

Taktix® | November 15, 2007, 3:47pm | #

Crap, the front page of this story is an ad for Ron Paul liberty dollars. This will make for either:

A: Ammo for the other GOP candidates, or...

B: a chance to publicize the goals standard stuff...

squarooticus | November 15, 2007, 3:48pm | #

The war on gold has begun anew.  History tells us how it will end, but it could be ugly in the meantime.

joe | November 15, 2007, 3:48pm | #

Barter currency?

If you're trading goods for currency or vice-versa, how is that bartering?

Jozef | November 15, 2007, 3:50pm | #

As soon as independent currencies are used in transactions, using them places you outside the tax system, which I guess ultimately was the reason behind the Liberty Dollar raids. I don't subscribe the "competition to US currency" theory - people who want to protect the value of their holdings can always purchase gold. I used to do it at 10 ounces apiece, but recently it's become too difficult as the price of dollars falls faster than my salary raises can offset.

Gambutt Rambutt | November 15, 2007, 3:57pm | #

I suggest a new Puberty Dollar made of zits.

sage | November 15, 2007, 4:02pm | #

If you're trading goods for currency or vice-versa, how is that bartering?

Because it's voluntary.  You're not required to accept it.

I think this is an ugly precedent, if true.  Though it's been said the Mint hates competition.

carrick | November 15, 2007, 4:04pm | #

Barter currency?

If the "currency" is not legal tender per the US goverment, then exchanging this "currency" for other products is by definition "barter".

Russ 2000 | November 15, 2007, 4:09pm | #

The war on gold has begun anew.

If it goes anything like the war on drugs, transactions in gold should take off.

Market Money | November 15, 2007, 4:12pm | #

Who wants to buy silver at $20 per troy ounce anyway ?

Warren | November 15, 2007, 4:17pm | #

It's just the Feds way of saying "Who do you think your fucking with"

It's straight up totalitarian oppression.  I haven't heard anything about the FBI raiding the town of Ithica NY

joe | November 15, 2007, 4:19pm | #

So it's the fact that the value of the "barter currency" isn't established by law that makes it a barter item instead of a currency?

$20 US is $20 US.

A pile of beaver hides is worth whatever two people in a transaction agree it's worth.

The Liberty Dollars are only worth what people trading with and for them decide they're worth, so they're more like beaver hides.

Is that it?

sage | November 15, 2007, 4:22pm | #

Right now, joe, you can get one liberty dollar for about eighty-six cents. 

The "barter" part comes when you offer a liberty dollar as a payment where FRNs are the norm. I imagine most of the time the people will say "no" but sometimes they'll take the coins because no matter what's stamped on them, they are gold (or silver). And they can't be worth less than that. Unlike FRNs.

John-David | November 15, 2007, 4:22pm | #

$20 US is $20 US.

A pile of beaver hides is worth whatever two people in a transaction agree it's worth.

Yes, and how much is that in pubes?

Daniel Morin | November 15, 2007, 4:24pm | #

The action of the FBI is simply another instance of Legal Plunder done by the government.

... while theft by one or more persons or groups is bad and criminal, that when the State engages in such acts, it is not theft but the legitimate and even sanctified act called “taxation.”

See "Ethics of Liberty" at http://www.mises.org/rothbard/ethics/twentytwo.asp

R C Dean | November 15, 2007, 4:26pm | #

$20 US is $20 US.

Not over any meaningful time scale.

sage | November 15, 2007, 4:27pm | #

I think the government's biggest problem with this is: if the LD takes off, how could they tax it?

Kwix | November 15, 2007, 4:28pm | #

UPDATE: Thanks to reasoner Jeff Taylor, I've seen a copy of a Nov. 9 seizure warrant on an Asheville, NC, address, not available online, claiming that liberty dollars at that address are forefeitable for being connected with money laundering and mail fraud.

Aww man, quit bogarting it and post it already.  Yeah, I know, probably some legal stuff against doing so but still...

Fluffy | November 15, 2007, 4:30pm | #

The money laundering charge makes it pretty clear that this is a tax issue.

The state will probably claim that each time you use one of these coins to engage in barter, you're realizing a capital gain, and have to pay a capital gains tax. Since I have to imagine that none of those taxes are being paid, that means that the state can claim that making these coins available constitutes "laundering".

Jason | November 15, 2007, 4:30pm | #

R C Dean
"'$20 US is $20 US.'

Not over any meaningful time scale."

Nope, it'll still be $20 US. There just won't be a US for it to have value.

carrick | November 15, 2007, 4:31pm | #

The spot price on silver bullion is between $14 and $15 per ounce today. So a one-ounce $20 Liberty coin has a worst case value of 14 to 15 bucks if you melt it down.

Whereas a $20 Federal Reserve Note means the US government owes you twenty dollars worth of nothing, but the law says that sellers are required to take them.

Market Money | November 15, 2007, 4:33pm | #

One amusing thing about the Liberty Dollar people is that they're ostensibly trying to create a new currency and yet trying to peg it to the US dollar (so you can spend Liberty Dollars just like US dollars).

Silver is presently going for about US$ 14.50 per troy ounce. If we assume total confidence in the convertibility of paper Liberty Dollars -- snicker, snicker -- that would imply an exchange rate about US$1 = L$ 1.38 rather than a "you can spend them just like regular dollars" rate of 1:1.

flix | November 15, 2007, 4:34pm | #

Carrick:

Liberty dollars are not sold at face value. A $20 is normally sold by liberty merchants at $15 or $16.

In any case, I'd rather have 14 bucks than an unbacked IOU.

carrick | November 15, 2007, 4:34pm | #

Following up on Fluffy's point, if you trade 15 bucks worth of silver for a twenty dollar dvd at the local video shop, then you have realized a "gain".

sage | November 15, 2007, 4:36pm | #

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, Fluffy, but if I trade you my car for your guitar, isn't that the same thing? 

The only way I could see this standing up in court is if they decide it's different because the LD "looks like real money."

andy | November 15, 2007, 4:36pm | #

You can argue all you like about how good a currency the LD is, but the fact is that the FED is scared of the competition and despite assertions to the contrary will defend its monopoly with guns.

JL | November 15, 2007, 4:37pm | #

I think the government's biggest problem with this is: if the LD takes off, how could they tax it?

the same way they tax transactions made by people who exchange goods for federal reserve notes.

Market Money | November 15, 2007, 4:37pm | #

This just in...  The euro is now trading above 2.00 L$.

carrick | November 15, 2007, 4:38pm | #

Liberty dollars are not sold at face value. A $20 is normally sold by liberty merchants at $15 or $16.

And then if you "buy" a DVD marked at $20 USD at a local store with a $20 LD, you have realized a gain . . . Unless the retailer is aware enough to give you only $15 USD in credit on the purchase.

sixstring | November 15, 2007, 4:39pm | #

Pretty soon, all we'll have left to trade will be barbs.

sage | November 15, 2007, 4:40pm | #

What andy said.

question | November 15, 2007, 4:42pm | #

"Market Money | November 15, 2007, 4:37pm | #
This just in... The euro is now trading above 2.00 L$."

and what does that mean to you?

Warren | November 15, 2007, 4:43pm | #

It doesn't take a trained federal agent to connect the dots here, I suppose. In other words: What-th-what-th-What?

Ha ha ha ha ha
Brian is definitely funnier than David.

jj | November 15, 2007, 4:43pm | #

good one sixstring

carrick | November 15, 2007, 4:44pm | #

In communities that use the LD, do the participants keep an up-to-date "exchange rate" between LDs and USDs? Or do people actually use LDs at the "face value" for transactions?

The Democratic Republican | November 15, 2007, 4:45pm | #

Fed conspiracy theories are great and all, but I think we need to remember that we don't even know what's happened yet.

I for one am skeptical. I recently ordered a batch of Ron Paul dollars (a small batch), perhaps 10 days ago. I realized I gave them the wrong mailing address, so I emailed LAST NIGHT to give them my correct address (assuming the order hadn't already been mailed and lost). I wake up THIS MORNING to find a badly written email about an FBI raid in my inbox. I'm just saying...this seems weird, and I'd like to get some more info.

Thanks to Doherty for getting the first piece of hard news I've seen about this.

Shannon  Love | November 15, 2007, 4:45pm | #

joe,

So it's the fact that the value of the "barter currency" isn't established by law that makes it a barter item instead of a currency?

Something becomes "money" only when the vast majority of agents in the economy will accept it in exchange for any other good. People accept dollars because the government will enforce any contract payed in dollars (legal tender for all debts public and private) Before such discipline existed, people used gold which was a universally accepted trade good.

If something cannot rise to this level of acceptance then it is really only traded due to its intrinsic value. Therefore, the "value' of the liberty dollar for most people is merely the value of the silver it contains. So in taking a liberty dollar, people are really just trading beaver pelts for silver, which is barter.

Theoretically, if a critical mass of people used liberty dollars then they would suddenly become currency. I don't see that happening. Hell, gold coins aren't really currency anymore, Most people won't accept gold as common payment and the State will not enforce contracts paid in gold.

sage | November 15, 2007, 4:48pm | #

I'm sure it's all a misunderstanding. Once vonGotsumgold is cleared of any wrongdoing, all his precious metal will be returned to him.


Right?

Derrick | November 15, 2007, 4:48pm | #

and that the agent observed von NotHaus driving a 1999 Cadillac Deville

A damning piece of evidence, for sure.

J sub D | November 15, 2007, 5:00pm | #

In communities that use the LD, do the participants keep an up-to-date "exchange rate" between LDs and USDs? Or do people actually use LDs at the "face value" for transactions?

In my travels I've noticed that most merchants know the exchange rate for US dollars. In many nations, you do better by doing your exchange in bars than you do at banks. People all over know what money is worth. If I were to accept these tokens as payment, I'd sure as hell know their value, vis a vis the US dollar.

sage | November 15, 2007, 5:00pm | #

Well, this is something:

http://usadaily.com/Article.cfm?articleID=164591

"FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville IN seizing two tons of Ron Paul dollars.

(Editors note: Ron Paul and his campaign are not connected to Liberty Dollar and Paul's campaign has not endorsed the Paul dollar. It should also be noted that not all Liberty Dollars have Paul’s likeness on them.)


According to this open letter posted on the alternative news site Whatreallyhappened.com, FBI and Secret service agents seized almost two tons of new Ron Paul gold dollars, files, computers, and froze bank accounts. "

Sorry for your loss, The Democratic Republican.  That sucks.

squarooticus | November 15, 2007, 5:01pm | #

I'm sure it's all a misunderstanding. Once vonGotsumgold is cleared of any wrongdoing, all his precious metal will be returned to him.


Right?

Nah... they'll conclude the property itself committed the crime of laundering. The War on Gold will be more analogous to the War on Drugs than most people now think possible.

The FBI | November 15, 2007, 5:03pm | #

"I wake up THIS MORNING to find a badly written email about an FBI raid in my inbox. I'm just saying...this seems weird, and I'd like to get some more info."

Don't worry- we'll be by soon to explain it all to you.

jmklein | November 15, 2007, 5:04pm | #

lol, they could have just let the LD continue existing under the radar, but now their going to a have a huge public kangaroo trial.

Mark Rushmore | November 15, 2007, 5:05pm | #

"If we assume total confidence in the convertibility of paper Liberty Dollars -- snicker, snicker..."

Converted your FRNs lately, have ya?

Wait, what? | November 15, 2007, 5:05pm | #

I agree with Democratic Republican. We still don't even really know what happened yet. Cut the conspiracy crap and wait to see if these dudes weren't actually trying to fleece their customers.

sage | November 15, 2007, 5:05pm | #

BTW, two tons of gold @800/oz = $46M USD.

Now I see why the FBI was so interested.

squarooticus | November 15, 2007, 5:06pm | #

When is someone going to blink? Screwing with gold owners is probably not the best idea, since in this day and age gold owners correlate well with gun owners. Then again, the smart ones got the actual bullion or otherwise put their assets beyond the reach of the Feds.

joshua corning | November 15, 2007, 5:06pm | #

Does this effect the value of World of Warcraft gold holdings?

Ska | November 15, 2007, 5:10pm | #

I'm more disgusted that the $CAN is trading higher than the $US.

However using the Big Mac price index, burgers are cheaper in the US than the UK.

Yeah.  That's right.  Enjoy this mind-blowing post.

Ryan | November 15, 2007, 5:12pm | #

Brian - don't you read the other posts?  Put that warrant up at wikileaks!

Mangelo | November 15, 2007, 5:14pm | #

This country is begging for a 2nd American Revolution.

Bingo | November 15, 2007, 5:16pm | #

How will this effect the value of my bling? I might have to start hanging a diamond-encrusted euro symbol around my neck instead of a platinum $.

Bingo | November 15, 2007, 5:25pm | #

Ska:
Soon we'll have border-hopping canadians taking advantage of our fast food dollar menus!

The Democratic Republican | November 15, 2007, 5:27pm | #

Sage -- The problem is that all of the news stories are linking back to the email sent by the owner.

creech | November 15, 2007, 5:33pm | #

C'mon, the real reason he was arrested was for driving a 1999 Cadillac deville, for gawdsakes.

FZappa | November 15, 2007, 5:39pm | #

One point of a byzantine, enormous legal system is that the state can find something to harass, destroy, or imprison virtually anyone they want to. Madison warned against it, so did Ayn Rand.

We're there. If the U.S. Gubmint wants to put Liberty Dollar out of business -- and they do, because LD cuts in on their money racket -- they can. And, it appears, are in the process of.

If there's a word besides "tyranny" for this, let me know.

LibertyPlease | November 15, 2007, 5:40pm | #

This country is begging for a 2nd American Revolution.

Agreed.

Mangelo | November 15, 2007, 5:42pm | #

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/15/liberty-dollar-office-raided/

Link to the Evansville Courier a hometown newspaper for the Liberty Dollar Business.

Warren | November 15, 2007, 5:43pm | #

Then again, the smart ones got the actual bullion or otherwise put their assets beyond the reach of the Feds.

Piffle.  To get "beyond the reach of the Feds" you'd have to put your assets in an Afghani cave.

rho | November 15, 2007, 5:45pm | #

I agree with Democratic Republican. We still don't even really know what happened yet. Cut the conspiracy crap and wait to see if these dudes weren't actually trying to fleece their customers.

I'm not opposed to jumping the gun, but why do you think you'll be getting the full and correct story from the Feds?

The LD folks may have been doing something illegal, but that doesn't make it wrong.

squarooticus | November 15, 2007, 5:47pm | #

Piffle. To get "beyond the reach of the Feds" you'd have to put your assets in an Afghani cave.

Okay, *reasonably* beyond the reach of the Feds. I'd like to see the US government try to seize all the gold in London, for instance. Really: I think it would be instructive, no matter what the outcome.

Kwix | November 15, 2007, 5:49pm | #

Good one Warren.

Malto Dextrin | November 15, 2007, 5:52pm | #

It might be interesting if the Liberty Dollar folks allowed convertibility into Second Life's Linden dollars, and into other alternate currencies. Avoid the FRNs completely, just trade around them.

The Gisele Bundchen approach.

Hmmm.....maybe some of the Liberty Dollars should be struck with her likeness on them.

iih | November 15, 2007, 5:53pm | #

I am not worried about this harming Ron Paul. If anything, if RP can explain it well in debates or interviews, it could be an opportunity to show the ridiculousness of the whole think.

T | November 15, 2007, 5:56pm | #

Pretty soon, all we'll have left to trade will be barbs.

Some of the folks around here will be wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice when that happens.

And since when is driving an 8 year old car a sign that you're a shrewd tax-dodging money manipulator? Unless FBI agents are so stupid they think driving around a car worth (generously) 10K is impressive.

NH | November 15, 2007, 6:04pm | #

SO now we're not allowed to own silver or gold? Doesn't that make millions of us criminals?

Market Money | November 15, 2007, 6:04pm | #

"If we assume total confidence in the convertibility of paper Liberty Dollars -- snicker, snicker..."

Converted your FRNs lately, have ya?

Well, you can use FRNs to buy silver or gold or anything else (euros, pounds, yen).  The solidity of the FRN is another issue.

Ultimately the value of any money is determined by the market (yes, excessive printing will affect the market price).

Craig | November 15, 2007, 6:23pm | #

It's funny (or not funny) that the warrant story mentions money laundering and mail fraud, and not tax evasion, if that's the real threat/illegality going on. (It also makes you wonder how much better people think things would be with the "Fair" Tax.)

Why conduct undercover operations to determine the legality of the Liberty Dollar? Why not just hold a public hearing? If some people are indeed laundering money or evading taxes with Liberty Dollars, how does that make all Liberty Dollars complicit in the crime(s)?

I guess the paper bills should have had a disclaimer: Unlike Federal Reserve Notes, this note is backed by ____ ounces of silver, unless the silver backing the note is seized by the government first, for competing with their unbacked currency.

furbygate | November 15, 2007, 6:24pm | #

Liberty Dollars -- or real gold and silver coins --- end the inflation tax imposed by the government and big banks. If your "money" buys more each year unlike the FRN which buys less each year -- why would anyone ever support FRNs as their money... this is the big fear of the banker backed government.

droogy | November 15, 2007, 6:33pm | #

Here's an email I got from Liberty Dollars about the raid:
Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.

For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts.



We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money.



But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken.



This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too.



The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people’s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form.



I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions.



Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don’t let this happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal – to return America to a value based currency.


Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.

]-->

Please click HERE to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back!

If the above link does not work you can access the page by copying the following into your web browser. http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php

Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and their dollar sinks to a new low.



Bernard von NotHaus

Monetary Architect

rp4Prez | November 15, 2007, 6:35pm | #

Anyone who is classified by the government or described by the media(?) as being "a threat to
stabilization efforts in [the war on] Iraq" can and -- especially in light of this multi-million dollar FBI/SS raid on Liberty Dollar -- SHALL have property seized by the G-men. This is real, and here is the legal basis:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_Property_of_Certain_Persons_Who_Threaten_Stabilization_Efforts_in_Iraq

You know, I really liked the way the Peace Dollar said "Stop the War" on the reverse...sorry, I digressed.

I wonder how much clearer it will have to get before America wakes up!! The Constitution is all we have left, so remind every Patriotic friend that this battle not only must be fought, but also won...Write your elected officials, all of them and highlight this travesty of justice. If they react accordingly, then we might even pitch in to get them re-elected. Now do we have their attention?

What's the frequency, Kenneth? | November 15, 2007, 6:43pm | #

"$20 US is $20 US."  Which is also a sheet of linen with ink on it, and nothing more, by definition.

...and a $20 liberty is an ounce of silver...

John-David | November 15, 2007, 6:46pm | #

Somewhere, Bunker Hunt is laughing his ass off.

sage | November 15, 2007, 7:12pm | #

Wow, droogy, that sucks. There are two equally plausible explanations. One is that vonMetalbeard is telling the truth. The other is that he's just bilked a bunch of people out of millions.

Either way, if true, it's a sad day.

One Angry Patriot | November 15, 2007, 7:19pm | #

"Who wants to buy silver at $20 per troy ounce anyway?"

Who wants to pay $21.95 for an American Silver Eagle from the US Mint?

http://catalog.usmint.gov/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&categoryId=13738&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=10191&top_category=10191

Syphax | November 15, 2007, 7:38pm | #

Finally some more info, an audio interview with a Liberty Dollar cofounder:

http://www.chrisbrunner.com/2007/11/15/liberty-dollar-raided-by-fbi-and-secret-service-co-founder-confirms/

grumpy realist | November 15, 2007, 7:46pm | #

Ummm....do we have, in fact, any evidence that such a raid in fact occurred? If all the so-called "news reports" are simply pointing back to the very same email sent out by one individual, I'm gonna be suspicious. With the sort of crowd that would purchase these things, you can blame ANYTHING on the feds and they believe it, wholeheartedly.

John | November 15, 2007, 8:04pm | #

This is totally bazaar. I've been scouring the net for main stream news on this and there is nothing. So if this really happened, something is rather fishy about the it. Usually something of this scale would surely catch their attention.

Market Money | November 15, 2007, 8:14pm | #

Who wants to pay $21.95 for an American Silver Eagle from the US Mint?

You don't have to.  You can go to a private coin or currency dealer and buy junk bullion coins or silver bars.

Good questions about whether the raid happened. Has any word come out of the J. Edgar Hoover Building ?

Market Money | November 15, 2007, 8:16pm | #

...and a $20 liberty is an ounce of silver...

If it's a medallion, yes.

thedifferentphil | November 15, 2007, 9:03pm | #

Buying one of these Liberty Dollars is an interesting collectible. Buying more than one under the misguided idea that a $14 silver medal is somehow worth more than an Andrew Jackson should disqualify you from reading a magaizine called "Reason." Is a Liberty dollar worth more or less than a $20 FRN? Well, the Liberty Dollar people are happy to trade you as many as you want at that rate, so there we have our answer.

tarran | November 15, 2007, 9:11pm | #

So, thedifferentphil,

Quick question?  Do you grow all your own food?

Because I don't see how you could survive if you're avoiding the rip-off artists at the supermarket who offer to sell you food that they think is worth less than the price they want you to pay...

Kevin Parker | November 15, 2007, 9:29pm | #

"I've been scouring the net for main stream news on this and there is nothing."

Maybe they took all that metal and moved to some gulch somewhere.  Anybody seen T.J. Rodgers or John Mackey lately?  ;)

John-David | November 15, 2007, 9:35pm | #

"Heroes Health Card"? I like Richardson, but hello new entitlement. Do I really need to bitchslap him and tell him that military service is a contract, and you can't change the rules of the contract after it has been fulfilled?

John-David | November 15, 2007, 9:35pm | #

Shit, wrong thread. Sorry.

Kenny | November 15, 2007, 9:58pm | #

tarran-
I think 2ndphil's point is that why would you buy carrots at $20 a bushel when most supermarkets you have access to are selling it for $14 a bushel.

Market Money | November 15, 2007, 10:08pm | #

Good Lord, now we're going to get into carrot-based commodity money !

Michael | November 15, 2007, 10:15pm | #

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned a possible Ponzi Scheme:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

I don't know enough about LD, but don't be too quick to blame the government.  Something does sound a little out of whack here.

rp4Prez | November 15, 2007, 10:23pm | #

There is nothing "Ponzi" about the intrinsic value of beautiful, precious metals-based tokens that are literally worth their weight...and oftentimes more, as the dollar's value declines.

R C Dean | November 15, 2007, 10:29pm | #

And then if you "buy" a DVD marked at $20 USD at a local store with a $20 LD, you have realized a gain

Not a taxable gain, though. I don't believe trading anyhting for a DVD is a realization event. Still, the Internal Revenue Code is a big place, so YMMV.

B. Bunny | November 15, 2007, 10:44pm | #

Good Lord, now we're going to get into carrot-based commodity money

Woiks for me, doc.

NH | November 15, 2007, 11:06pm | #

We all know why they did this.
I don't care if it's plastic -- they had no right to steal these assets.
How can you all not see this as more serious than you do?

They are trying to take the assets of those they perceive to be part of the 'revolution' against the central banks, and those who would donate on Dec 16th.
And now that have our names, all of us.

Smells like Nazi Germany to me.

___

November 15, 2007

The 'Ron Paul Dollar'

Posted by Lew Rockwell at November 15, 2007 05:25 PM

Terrible news that the company that makes the "Liberty Dollar" and the "Ron Paul Dollar" has been raided by the FBI.

But please note that Ron Paul has no financial or other relationship with this company, and that he was neither asked for his permission, nor gave it, to have his likeness and name used to sell the company's products.

BTW, could the feds' decision to stage this raid have something to do with Ron's raging success?

 

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